Carey Niewhof Interview: From Pastor To Author & Podcaster; Writing For Church Leaders

Foreign Here and joining me today is Carrie Newhoff uh Kerry is best-selling Leadership author he's a speaker he's a Podcaster a former attorney some would Call that recovering attorney yeah yeah And he's also a church planner uh he he Writes uh one of today's most Influential or he creates one of today's Most influential leadership podcasts uh And has an online content listenership Viewership whatever you want to call it Of over 1.5 million people a month he's Written multiple books including at your Best didn't see it coming and lasting Impact you've probably heard of his Podcast it's I know anytime I look at The podcast top charts I feel like it's Up there uh and it does really really Well so I'm excited to have him come on And we'll talk about writing faith-based Books as a leader as a church leader Self-publishing traditional publishing His experiences with both a bunch more Stuff Carrie great to have you here it's Great to be with you Chandler thanks so Much for having me on So three books since 2015 as far as I Can tell at least and I was on your Website it looks like there may even be One or one or two other books that I'm Not seeing on Amazon why books how does That fit in with your business with your Podcast with your ministry like why is

That such a key part of of what you do I Think we're trying to figure that out as We speak right now you know why do you Write a book because you can I got Conscripted into writing my first book And just I know you're one of the 30 Under 30 and everything like that but I Think I was 45 when I wrote my First Book 12 years ago which is insane you'd Be like oh your writing days are over But all through my 30s people were like You got to write a book you got to write A book I'm like number one I don't know How I don't have any connections I'm in Canada and I'm too busy leading a church So uh the first time was I got Conscripted into writing a book with a Friend of mine Reggie Joyner he was at North Point he runs orange these days For the last 15 years or so and we wrote A book parenting so it was a Co-authorship I did the first draft and Then I thought well I learned a lot About change maybe I'll do my first solo Book so 10 years ago I came out with my First solo book which was Semi-independently published and then I Did that was through orange the rethink Group Reggie's company they they went Into becoming a publisher so I was their First book and it was an experiment for Everybody I launched another book with Them and then you know those books sold Relatively well for self-published so I

Got a deal through an agent I got an Agent then got a book deal with penguin Random House those are the last two Books and right now we're trying to Figure out what we want to do with books In the future so timely conversation Um so conscripted what does that mean it Means he said we're going to write a Book together I'm like do I have a Choice he's like no we're going to write A book together so he volunteered me and Uh I'm like I don't know anything about It so we did uh he did all the sort of Business and like got the agent uh got The publisher and I was just a co-author With him so we worked on ideas for Months maybe a year actually I would fly Down to Atlanta or Panama City Beach or Wherever Reggie was we'd hammer out for A day or two sometimes on a key idea And then I fly home and then actually Wrote the first draft about 35 40 000 Words between Christmas and New Year's Of 2009. it's insane yeah so oh man so Many follow-up questions there Let's see I'll follow up on that one Just real quick so writing a draft of Your book between Christmas and New Year's I think this is a time where uh a Lot of people think hey I can't make Progress on my book then and I've Actually got a similar experience so I'd Love to hear your experience first I'll Share mine

How'd you do it why did you do it would You recommend it would you not Well you know the the first one's the Easiest I I found Um I didn't know anything about book Writing but as a content creator as a You know preacher and then in law I Really was drawn in my brief time to to The written work to or rather courtroom Like preparing arguments and that kind Of thing so you know writing it's funny Every book has taken longer to write so That's another story for another day but That one just hammered out a rough first Draft 35 40 000 words in about six days So I was still leading a church full time So it had to fit in the cracks and it Just started to flow plus we had also Worked on the ideas for a year wasn't Like I was starting with a blank page we Had the ideas I told some stories you Know sometimes it was like insert your Story here and then I went to the next Principle Um so I mean it was a it was a beta but You know that first draft is so critical And yeah would I recommend it I don't Know I mean My last book took me two years to write I tried cranking it out and it just Didn't crank uh it's probably my best Book the book I'm most proud of in terms Of the final product but the process was

Really hard so and then That was at your best at your best was Probably the book I'm most proud of Probably I think went through eight Drafts which is what took two years and I mean that was a penguin Random House Water Brook I had great editors working On it Um really good readers who said uh this Doesn't make sense or you lost me in Chapter four so it was a number of Different rewrites so you know it's kind Of funny writing is such a such a thing I mean probably the the first draft of The first book was easy because we had Worked with the content for so long But I had worked with the content for at Your best for five years and probably Because I worked the content for so long It was way harder to write so I don't Know at one point it worked for to my Advantage knowing the subject at another Point I got my head Lost In The Weeds so Um So it's funny you mentioned that I my Brother and I uh send you about before They interviewed the one that plays need To read We we wrote our first book in the draft In about a week and it was a and it was Around Christmas New Year it was the Same thing because we both were so busy Me and business stuck to him and with Music stuff that we knew this wasn't a

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Thing that we could just have in the Margins like over the course of three Years like we're gonna need to get in Get out no inevitably it's a rough draft And then you start editing it for the Next months and months but it's so Interesting the parallels of kind of Taking that time which a lot of people Would just kind of write off as all Right that's just either I'm not working Or whatever else but kind of capturing That time and and using it to make Significant progress in a short well I Think you have to because you know like The myth of of being paid full-time to Write and having your little writing Cabin in the backyard like Mark Twain or Donald Miller I mean that happens if you Sell a million books like I've I've sold A lot of books but like not nearly Enough to retire from other Pursuits It's in life so I think that first draft That first book or even your second Third or fourth it has to come in the Cracks because you know unless you have A runaway home run it doesn't pay for Itself and you know people think oh You're an author you're you're you know Floating in cash it's like you got to Sell a lot of books man like a lot of Books to to have that kind of like yeah What I do is right and I'm a writer and I have friends who are writers and they Have that but they're always working on

A book so I think for the rest of us Like I wrote my first solo book not Between Christmas and New Year's but I Was part of the 5 a.m Club I would get Up at 3 30 4 in the morning have my Quiet time and then get writing because I had a day job that started by 7 30 or 8. so if you can crank out 500 700 words Um a morning you can get an awful lot Done and so I did that was a shorter Book that was maybe 25 000 words so it Didn't take quite as long but you know You you've you've got to find the cracks And otherwise what do you do well you Sleep in you watch Netflix you're on YouTube too long you get lost on Tick Tock and you know redeem some of that Time so when I'm in a writing season Like I don't know what's happening in House of the Dragon I have no idea where The crown is in its production schedule I'm I'm I'm working I'm writing yeah That's great and and I love that you Called it a season because it's a Short-term sacrifice to create an asset Or this thing that then will live for a Long period of time and it's that Short-term sacrifice that creates that Now you mentioned hey you're not going To get rich or at least most people want Writing a book and and so you said and Then earlier in the interview we talked About hey you're still kind of figuring Out where this fits with everything

Why why so that I I'll kind of go back To that and what are your raw thoughts It sounds like you're still working Through that but why books I mean in the Early days it was probably as you were a Pastor and it was it seems like it was Maybe a jumping off point to this Broader kind of business that you have And podcasts that you have but then how Does this fit it looks like every three Years or so I think it's 2015 2018 2021 So you're not maybe you're not like You're saying your friend's always Writing a book but that takes some Significant intentionality and effort so How do you view that and for your goals As the uh there's there's the reader Goals and there's the author goals like All right so how do you view that for Your goals as as the author Yeah so my books generally sell between 30 and 100 000 copies which is you know You know the stats that's way above Industry average the average book sells Is it still true you would know this Because this is what you do 500 books Like even from a major publisher about 500 books so I mean something in that Range yeah something in that range so I Mean we've done really really well with Books but again You know even with a deal with a major Publisher you spread that out over five Years and it's a decent living but

You're not buying a yacht you're not you Know you're not flying private around The world on that and you're not Quitting your day job you're just you're Just not you just you need to sell maybe Half a million or a million books for it To be oh this is my chief income so why Write a book so I'm holding not my book Right here but tomorrow I interview Pat Luncheoni and Patrick has become a good Friend I love Pat he's been on my show a Bunch of times so this is the third time I've interviewed him on the working Genius when he first developed this Latest thing he's working on he and his Team reached out to me and said hey can I get come on the podcast we'll talk About it I'm like yep and he had Literally just invented it a month Earlier then I had him on again and we Talked about it that was maybe two years Ago but now he's got a book So what's the advantage of Pat having This working genius thing he's shared it On YouTube he's got it on his website He's run a quarter million people Through a paid assessment to figure out Their working style their working genius Well when he has a book he's got all Those ideas in what a pat write 200 Pages And now it's codified and books have the Potential to outlive you like Pat's Probably I think his best-selling book

Is still the five dysfunctions of the Team he published that 20 years ago Anybody who was blood there it is there It is what does it say you got the 20 So two days from now oh you'll have a Blast with Pat and you know like the Thing about Patrick is that book is Speaking to you now now are you going Back to Pat doesn't have a Blog but to a Blog post from 2008 to discover the five Dysfunctions of the team no that's a Hundred years ago in Internet years Um podcasts They're really interesting I do a Podcast it's done exceedingly well we Have 25 million downloads and Counting Which is amazing but like you know People aren't going back and going oh I Want to listen to everything about Working genius and take notes you buy a Book because somebody did the hard work Of condensing everything they know or Everything you need to know about a Subject into a book and putting it Together and if something happened to Pat God forbid the book outlives them Like I was reading I was finishing Another book today uh by a woman named Caitlyn Beatty and for the end she's Quoting all these dead Christian authors Well what lives from Eugene Peterson or Dallas Willard or people like that long After they've died they're books Their talks have disappeared their

Sermons Are gone The interviews they do I interviewed Eugene never got a chance to interview Dallas I was bummed about that Um they're kind of Disappearing and They're there if you want to look at Them but the books outlive you so I Think books do two things books have the Potential to consolidate all your ideas At an accessible price for people they Have the potential to outlive you and Then I guess the third thing is Books are still the business card like It's sort of like if you have a book or You have a TED Talk that's your business Card today and You have a much harder time getting Taken seriously as a speaker which I do A lot of public speaking or as a thought Leader if you don't have a book I don't know why that is that's just True yeah Now I want to I want to dip back into The writing piece and I want to Circle Back to the self-publishing traditional Publishing kind of done both exploring What that looks like in the future but You talked about First book wrote the draft in a week Between Christmas and New Year she said Most recent book took two years and was Way more painful uh process why do you Think those were different and any

Lessons learned from those two Experiences that might be helpful uh for Authors I don't know that I have a good Answer to that but I'll give you my shot At it because John Acuff is a really Good friend John is working on book Seven right now or something and John And I talk all the time and John says Every book gets harder and Um I'll let him speak for himself why Would that be maybe not that's maybe not A universal experience but I have a Couple theories on that number one use a Lot of your good stories in book one or Book two right so the easy part is done It's like if if an album if an artist Waits 20 years to release their first Record They've had 20 years to write that song 20 years to write that content 20 years To do all that there's hang on just Here Ah just got some kind of allergy I hope You can cut that out you're good okay Um Their second album is due in 18 months So 25 years to write your first album 18 Months to write your second that's why The software album usually isn't as good As the initial album and then you have To develop ideas that you're really Passionate about so you know as my agent Says and as my publisher says and some

Of the other people I know I'm Publishing like if you have a really Good idea an idea that you can't not Write about that's probably your next Book so I've been waiting until I have One that I can't not write about now why Did this one take Two years rather than Less than two weeks Um it's a good question Because I knew I knew the content well I Taught it as a course I taught it to Leaders around the world when I was Speaking so I thought it was going to be Easy peasy but when you really get into It number one I know a lot more about Writing now than I did 12 years ago when I wrote my first book So you just learn a lot more about the Craft the standards are higher it's a Major publisher and so you want to make Sure that works well second thing Publishing has changed people's Attention span is smaller and you really Want to make sure that you capture it Number three I wanted to make sure that I had memorable and portable ideas so I Had been teaching Concepts about Managing your energy not just your time For years but I hadn't really taken the Time to develop good handles around them And somewhere around draft three I Thought no this is still too foggy like I know I've taught it it's changed

Thousands of lives the system but then I Came up with green yellow red so you Divide your day into three zones high Energy medium energy low energy and I Said what can I do I said well how about Green yellow red so we tried that out in A draft and it went really well people Are like oh I get that and now everybody He talks about the green zone the Red Zone the yellow zone what that means Just so I don't people leave people Hanging green is when your energy is High your creative ideas are flowing From morning people that's in the Morning for night owls that's at night Red is those two hours a day where You're exhausted and you need more Caffeine or a nap and then yellow is Everything in between and then the book I show you how to use each Zone to Optimize your productivity your Effectiveness your rest all of those Things and now we got tens of thousands Of people talking about their green zone Their yellow zone and the Red Zone it Just became super easy well you're Saying okay that's about a five second Idea green yellow red you didn't have to Get a PhD to think about that but Sometimes that kind of clarity can take A long time it is much more work to be Clear than it is to be confusing and What I wanted in that last book and I'm Not saying my first books were bad but

There's the most memorable Punchy Portable sticky material in at your best Than any other book I've written Probably because it took two years and Eight drafts to write so you think it's More sticky because you had more Iterations and and it sounds like maybe Also in those iterations you created Better Frameworks and and memorable Frameworks you think that's what makes It more sticky or is it something else Yeah definitely as Andy Stanley says Memorable as portable is memorable or Memorable as portable so if you can Remember something You're able to use it in your everyday Life so I worked really hard and at your Best to make sure that there were some Really memorable phrases and it's always Fun you know Kindle Kindle's a great Cheat because you can tell what people Actually highlight over what you think They're going to highlight if you get Your book published on Kindle and you Know people are highlighting the same Stuff and I'll go to a conference and or you know Hop on a call with a reader or a course Taker I developed into a course as well And they'll use the language that I used In the book right back at me like hey You know uh if you don't declare a Finish Line your body will or the Problem isn't how you spend your time

Off uh it's how you spend your time on Because time off won't heal you when the Time is when the problem is how you Spend time on they'll they'll give me Lines like that Um nobody will ever ask you to Accomplish your top priorities they'll Only ask you to accomplish theirs so That's a lot of complicated thought over Years reduced to a maxim that is Memorable that actually takes a lot of Work got it now you talked about you Kind of semi self-published the first Book you've done a couple books I think It is with random house and then you're Kind of contemplating this next book or Future books you self-published Traditionally published what have been The pros and cons of each so far and how Are you thinking through which route to Take in the future So yeah the first book was really kind Of hands off I was the co-author and That was with a Christian publisher not A major publisher so Reggie handled all That so I don't have a lot to say other Than the writing process but then when I Published two books with the rethink Group Reggie's company and again Um leading change without losing it was Book number one they had never published A book I'd never written one solo the Good news about that is it's simple Quick inexpensive and flexible so if you

Want to get a book off to press in three Months you can do that you don't have The 18 month or two year time frame of a Major publisher and we did that together In fact lasting impact what I did for That book if people and actually I just I don't want to say who it was uh but I Just advised somebody who's had like wow He's just so been so successful with his Online business sold his eight-figure Company for multiples of that I mean the Guy's brilliant but he's never written a Book and we spent some time together Other at a resort a conference we were At just after hours and I said look you Already wrote your book it's on your Blog so he's going to take a lot of his Blog ideas so three books ago with Lasting impact it was just about church Trends I took 30 posts I had written Hired an editor in Nashville and said Take my words and take all the listicles Out of them and turn that into a first Draft she did that then I took it and Away we went and we were published Within six months so I had already Written it it just lived somewhere else And then obviously if you have 38 blog Posts stacked back to back it gets Pretty boring so you have to vary the Structure and clean it up but we did That and then you know back then I got a Deal with penguin Random House a two Book deal and it was a great deal

Fantastic agent Um but then you get into the longer Cycle you do get better editing than you Would if you hire your own editor Because I mean they have New York City Standards and Um it's a much more stringent process I Think the surprise for me with major Publishing and I've shared this with my Publisher so I don't feel like I'm Telling Tales out of school is they're Looking for authors with platforms That's one of the reasons you get book Deals right so I thought that the Publisher would be able to deliver more Copies sold but probably you still end Up sending you know probably end up Selling 90 to 80 percent maybe 80 90 Percent of the books yourself off your Platform and it's not just social media It's your email list it's your podcast Etc etc so that left me because the Sales of my major published books are Not a whole lot better than the sales of My independently or semi self-published Books so that make a lot more abilities After the interview well if you cut out The middleman right and it depends on Your audience now one of the big Advantages to going with penguin random House and we wrote this in in my Contract is I wanted to be in airports Uh I wanted the book to be available in Airports and they made that happen which

Is great but you can make that happen Now with self-publishing as well or Hybrid publishing so I'm really weighing The options and then because I run a Communications company there's probably Opportunity in the next book or two to Try the self-published run and tie it Into other things that we're doing so Yeah we're just playing with the model Now if you publish with a major Publisher and you end up selling like James Clear Atomic habits Um why would you ever self-publish You know he sold four million copies why Would you do that I don't know if I was James Clear I wouldn't do it either he Hasn't even written a sequel to Atomic Habits yet right if you're Jim Collins You're doing other things but if you're More of a startup entrepreneur more of An owner operator you know we're a small Company we serve millions of people a Year we're very grateful for that but Our team is seven of us so we're not Like this massive Corporation or massive Research firm it's a hobby of mine that Has now become what I do and a business That employs a team of seven and gets to Serve millions of people every year it's Crazy And so what what about the Self-publishing route is attractive and Has you kind of considering that for the Next book

A couple of things a little more control Over the creative process a little more Control over intellectual property Ownership we because I'm a lawyer we Negotiated some good IP contracts and I Would encourage anybody who's going with A major publisher please have a lawyer Vet the intellectual property ideas Because what happens is the publisher Can lock them up and then you can't do Anything else with that content for the Rest of your life so we created a really Good IP Arrangement that allows them to Own the book expression but me to still Own the ideas behind it so that we we I Can't publish a book That competes with the book they Published but I can talk about the ideas I can share ideas and other forms I can Create courses etc etc around that but You have to be really careful so if you Self-publish you can do all of that the Timeline changes the responsibility Obviously all falls on you including Editing type setting distribution Etc etc but you also don't have a Middleman you don't have an agent you Don't have a publisher so if you sold Thirty thousand copies you know your Your take home on that is probably going To be 2 or 3x what it would be through a Major publisher absolutely yeah those Are the similar numbers we see as well I want to talk about the podcast and

Selling bookstore podcast and all that But uh before that I want to backtrack And ask a question I think probably a Lot of people who listen to your podcast Or who maybe are listening to this this Episode specifically probably are Wondering which is Um as a pastor Or even maybe in the leader but I don't Want to broaden the question too much Like especially as a pastor because you Come from that world what what advice Would you have for other pastors who are Thinking about writing a book Um and what kind of I've always thought That pastors have kind of an unfair Advantage because your best sermon Series is a book right kind of like you Said blog posts and listicles is and Your best most popular sermon series Could be the book that you write you've Done eight sermons in that series and That's like you've already created a lot Of the so I've always felt like pastors Kind of have an unfair advantage in that Way and in distribution with like okay You've got a captive audience weekly Um that that would would love to learn More from you and and it's just it's It's a simple way to embed the content That you teach so that it can be I feel Like implemented in the lives of your Congregation so that's called always Been my take but I'd love to hear your

Take and any advice specifically for Pastors who are thinking about writing a Book so I have some very specific Thoughts around this issue I think it is An opportunity and I also think it's a Trap Um one of the things that my wife and I Committed to is we were never going to Ask our congregation to buy our book so For the first couple of books we didn't Even mention the fact that we had Published a book to the church because I Didn't want anyone I didn't want that to Fall under the category of spiritual Abuse or taking advantage of people or You know taking advantage of as you say A captive audience so I think the church Thinking back to it the church did throw A book launch party for me for the first Book Parenting Beyond Your Capacity but Like there was no pressure to purchase Books because I felt like that was a Conflict of interest With my self-published books I didn't Think anybody would be interested in a Book on change theory or church Trends Because they were in the church this was For leaders so we never talked about it But then with Um my first major public education deal With didn't see it coming Tony and I Decided that because they the church at That point it wasn't lead Pastor anymore But they're like no we need to celebrate

This book you need to do a series on it I'm like great but we can't make people Do it so we purchased copies for the Congregation and gave one as a gift to Every household so that cost you money But on the other hand at a book deal and I could do that and then with the second One it was a pandemic the last one at Your best it was a pandemic so nobody Was going anyway so uh we kind of we Kind of didn't do much but yeah I I Think you should err on the side of Generosity and definitely steer clear of Any conflicts of interest if there's Anything you know there's so many Pastors in the headlines all the time For everything from sexual sin to Financial Scandal and I mean if there's Anything that is close to a taint don't And don't use your congregation as oh There's my first 500 sales or a thousand Sales or 10 000 sales I I have that does Not I'm not going to judge other people That does not sit well with me the other Thing I would say the other advice I Would give And this is what we did I made one Exception I did a speaking engagement uh And I think this is like oh 16 17 years Ago the flight was like 700 I didn't Have that money in my bank account so The church fronted that money Um for us and I paid them back when I Got paid and I thought that didn't feel

Good everybody knew about it like the Elders knew about it I'm like not doing That again and I made sure that my Finances from anything I did outside of My day-to-day Ministry obligations were Separate and I always open that up to The elders here's you know you want to See my T4 which is the Canadian tax form You look at my tax form you I'll tell You exactly how much money I made like What do you want to know where did I Spend my time I think that kind of Transparency is really good otherwise It's a trap and you're gonna get caught In some conflict of interest and the Last thing I want is you know some Single parent making minimum wage to Feel that they have to buy my book I Would rather have them not know about my Book or have me gift them with a book so That has served us really well if that's Helpful to people I think that can save You from a thousand conflicts of Interest and that way there's no taint When you get up there and you talk about Your book anybody who wants it can get a Copy for free or you know at least don't Be the guy opening up the trunk of your Car with you want to buy my book for Sure I don't know do that do that in the Marketplace maybe I I still don't do That in the marketplace I show up at Events all the time for getting to bring My book which is bad it's probably why I

Don't sell more books but you know I Would rather not have that taint around Me so that's a long way to say it now That said here's the advantage you're Right you can test your content before You put it in a book you know what Series did well you know what took off On YouTube and what didn't take off you Know how many downloads the podcast on Subject X got over the podcast on Subject Y and a lot of pastors Well-known it otherwise they get to test Their material then they get to refine It and sometimes you can preach it again In a different form so I think that's a Huge advantage and for those of you who Don't have that platform you actually do Have that platform it might not show up As a congregation but it shows up as Social media it shows up on Instagram And YouTube I mean I will sometimes Float ideas out there when I'm writing a Book and realize wow that landed with a Thud and then sometimes I'll express the Same idea in a different way it gets you Know a thousand likes I'm like oh the Internet is telling you something so you Can definitely get that feedback in Advance and then of course Everybody can have early readers so send Those initial chapters off to somebody Who's half intelligent who reads books Who loves you enough to tell you the Truth not like this is awesome and

They're saying to their spouse this is a Disaster but I'm going to tell them it's Awesome no you want someone who can tell You the truth like I loved it the early Readers to at your best as it you know I Think 2018 2019 was the no 2019 was the First summer I polished off draft one They're like by chapter four I was bored Now do I like getting that as an author I'm like no That was so good like because if if I if I bore the first thousand readers who Buy it on day one they're not going to Tell their friends there's not gonna be A second thousand there's no second Thousand so thank goodness I found out About that in the beta stage and didn't Find out about that after the book Launched so get some early readers so That's about the feedback loop and and Here ends the sermon on financial Integrity That's fantastic hey quick follow-up on That Um would your opinion change at all if And have you ever thought about Um if it if the book rights were owned By the church does that does that change At all Crazy but that that it's a little bit Different or is it still kind of no Should you do that should you not so I Have I have friends who have done that And I don't know enough like I haven't

Read the actual contracts I understand Some of the the basic ideas behind it And this is my legal brain right law School grad yeah so yeah um I think it Can work as long as you've got full Third party disclosure and a lot of Pastors will use that because maybe they Don't have the cash up front to pay For their own thing but then you got to Make sure that the benefit flows both Ways so the way we decided to do it was We were going to separate it and then You know my wife and I are able to be More generous than we would be in the Past because I publish books and have Income from that and now I run a company Full-time we still attend the church We're able to to give to the church Which is incredible we love doing that But it's freely given to the church Um and again when I was on staff the Elders had full transparency so I felt Like that was a win-win I think the Thing you have to be really careful About with that is sometimes the brand And the money and the author the pastor Become indistinguishable so I really Believe that as a rule pastors stay too Long I did the succession at our church When I was 50. everyone said you're way Too young But sometimes if those finances are all Intertwined and you can't find a good Exit you're going to stay even though

You shouldn't be leading the church Anymore just because they own the Publishing rights to your book or Something so you have to think it's like Contract 101 if you're going to enter Into a contract like that you have to Think about how it ends and so you don't End up holding the church hostage by you Overstaying your welcome by five years Becoming not a good leader but you want To leave because the book royalties are Vested with the church and I would say If you ever do a hybrid deal like that The church should get the better end of The deal like if it's 51 to 49 the Church should get the 51 you should get The 49. I've found every time I take a Pay cut every time I exercise some Downward Mobility God has a way of Making sure that we're not destitute we Still get to live indoors so I you know Just in the name of financial Integrity I would just say get it approved by Third party lawyers make sure it's fair Be honest and transparent about it and Then make sure there's an escape Clause So that when your season as a leader is Done you're not tied with some golden Handshakes to the church that makes you Or handcuffs rather that makes you stay Well beyond your god-appointed time and There are way too many stories out there With pastors who have long overstayed Their welcome and their effectiveness so

And that's a refreshing point of view so Thanks for sharing that hey we're almost Out of time here we go lightning around Two final questions got a massive Podcast he talked about uh earlier uh Making you bless over there uh you you Talked about earlier how being on other People's podcasts is how cell books is a Really good thing as an author obviously Your podcast is sold books as well Kind of actually unrelated to that Advice from the road ahead so this Podcast is doing pretty well Um but we you know it's it's no no Carrie neuhoff leadership podcast what Would be one or two tips on um growing a Podcast from someone who's done it well Well probably the best advice I got from John Acuff who I already talked about he Said it's your show do what you want Um if your podcast starts to get a bit Of traction Publishers are going to Start sending you books authors will Start sending you books and gifts and Like The Courier shows up almost every Day here and at first that made me feel Obligated like oh my goodness this Person gave me a 20 book I better Interview them and then I realized I I Give a lot of books away now it's like All right we're going to give this away I'll be generous to other people with The books to libraries often I just drop Them off at the church and the staff go

Through boxes of books I can't interview Everybody but if I'm interested in the Subject matter or the guest then it'll Be a good interview and if I'm not it Won't so with Pat who's been Patrick Lincione who's been on my show twice to Talk about it I'm going to spend the First half to three quarters of the Podcast talking about other things with Him and then drill down on different Aspects of the book we didn't cover in Previous episodes so you got to make Sure you honor your Covenant with your Listener and if you're interested in it It they're probably going to be Interested in it so that's one tip the Second thing I would say and it was Great my my producer Aaron called me on This recently she said I always say this Is not a book interview podcast I don't Want my podcast to be like oh in chapter One you say in chapter two you say in Chapter three you say because that's a Really easy and I think kind of a lazy Way to interview what I want to do and It's taken me like days over the last Week to prepare for four interviews in The next few days but I've done all Kinds of research I've read the book I've looked at TED Talks I've done all Of the above to try to come at because Remember the person that you're Interviewing is on an interview circuit And they're probably going to say the

Same thing on all those podcasts the Other podcasts that they're going on so You want to have a unique angle you want To try to figure out why are people Going to listen to your interview and The other thing is because you know how This works right famous authors get Media days and and your interview number Seven of 17 that day They're bored they've talked about this So you if if you find that they're Getting into rote conversation that's Happened once or twice where you're Getting rehearsed answers yeah throw Them a curveball and I remember one Interview I did where I asked this this Guy and I thought oh I think I've heard This answer before on another podcast so He was in the hospitality industry and I Asked him when you go out to dinner with Your wife what drives you crazy and he Just about jumped out of his chair and He goes sometimes she doesn't want to go Out with me because you know the server Will and I thought okay I got him I got Him he's off script and I've got him and That's what you want you want you want The conversation behind the scenes you Want the whole person engaged and Sometimes your guest is a little bit Bored like I love the fact that you're Asking questions about the industry that Yeah ask financial Integrity questions Because nobody has asked me that stuff

Before Chandler yeah and I'm like good I Get to talk about it so hopefully it's Helpful people can disagree but like hey That's my take on that subject you got Me engaged so I think that makes for a Good podcast that's awesome Carrie Parting piece of advice for the carry From whatever it was pre-2009 I think All the other carries out there who are Thinking about writing their first book Just do it Just do it literally like you're gonna Be scared thank goodness I got Conscripted to use that word like you Know sucked up into writing my first Book because I don't know how long it Would have taken if I didn't and then Once I did it it's sort of like doing 20 Push-ups you're like oh that was hard And then an hour later you're like yeah But I did it and then maybe next time You can do 30. and you know just do it Like if and maybe you don't have an Agent you don't have a publisher you Don't have any of that stuff don't worry About it sit down decide you're not Going to watch whatever you normally Watch tonight and get your laptop top Out and write 500 words that's it just Do that and then you've started That's great Well Carrie this has been awesome we're Gonna stay tuned uh and uh follow your Journey and see what you do with this

Next book Um where can people go uh to find out More about you what you're up to by your Books whatever would be most helpful so The easy thing to do is just Google my Name Carrie newhof it's a horrible Spelling but if you butcher it the Internet will help you find me because It's such a weird name Carrie or you can go to the art of Leadership that's where a Lot of leaders hang out these days That's something I founded earlier this Year it's the art of leadership Quote the art of leadership Or Carrie uh uh and we've got His newest book at your best book before That didn't see it coming first book Lasting impact and yeah we've got this Cliffhanger of the next book that yeah And whatever it's going to the church I Think it's going to be for the church But we don't know we're working on that Right now cool Carrie appreciate you This was awesome Thank you man

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